tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14510749.post3145377532852767512..comments2023-10-05T00:44:33.255+08:00Comments on CreationEvolutionDesign: Bogus: Shroud of Turin? #2Stephen E. Joneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14510749.post-87382404504995427492007-05-10T07:07:00.000+08:002007-05-10T07:07:00.000+08:00That pretty well answered my question, thanks for ...That pretty well answered my question, thanks for the reply.nFriedlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04994124097856880458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14510749.post-76067459375096830922007-05-09T10:25:00.000+08:002007-05-09T10:25:00.000+08:00Nathan>Hi, I came across this blog trying to study...Nathan<BR/><BR/>>Hi, I came across this blog trying to study John 11:44<BR/><BR/>My post mentioning John 11:44 is actually <A HREF="http://creationevolutiondesign.blogspot.com/2007/05/bogus-shroud-of-turin-1.html" REL="nofollow">part #1</A> immediately before this part #2.<BR/><BR/>>"And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go."<BR/><BR/>The problem with reading this only in English is that terms like "graveclothes" and "napkin" are translated from different Greek words which have their own specific meanings. <BR/><BR/>In the above, according to my interlinear Greek-English New Testament, "graveclothes" is the Greek word keiriais = "bandages". And "napkin" is Gk. soudarioo = "sweat-band."<BR/><BR/>Note that the above are only describing the linen strips that "bound" Lazarus' "hand and foot ... and his face."<BR/><BR/>It says nothing about a linen shroud (Gk. sindon) but presumably Lazarus also had around him, otherwise he would have been naked, which is not mentioned.<BR/><BR/>As Stevenson & Habermas below point out, it is a misunderstanding to interpret this as though Lazarus was bound around his *body* with bandages like an Egyptian mummy, because the Jews did not bury their dead that way, but lay them out on a flat surface, tied their arms, legs and jaw so that when rigor mortis set in they would be straight in repose, and covered their body with a linen sheet. <BR/><BR/>>And I saw where you said<BR/>><BR/>"Since the Jewish burial custom allowed the use of cloths to bind the hands and feet"<BR/>><BR/>>Do you know of any good references where I could look up more about that? <BR/><BR/>See these quotes by Stevenson & Habermas:<BR/><BR/>"*Jewish Burial Customs*. The first point of comparison is the cloth itself. The gospels say that Jesus was buried in a cloth (or cloths); the Shroud of Turin appears to be a burial cloth which medical experts say once held a dead body. The image reveals a man lying on his back with his feet close together. His elbows protrude from his sides and his hands are crossed over the pelvic area. We can ascertain that the linen sheet was wound lengthwise up the front and down the back of the corpse. ... Is this kind of burial compatible with the New Testament reports? It is at least compatible with Jewish customs as we know them from extrabiblical sources. Recent archaeological excavations at the Qumran community found that the Essenes buried their dead in the way represented on the Shroud. Several skeletons were found lying on their backs, faces pointing upward, elbows bent outward, and their hands covering the pelvic region. The protruding elbows rule out an Egyptian-type mummified burial. Also very instructive is the _Code of Jewish Law_, which discusses burial procedures in its `Laws of Mourning.' It instructs that a person executed by the government was to be buried in a single sheet. This is another parallel with the Shroud." (Stevenson, K.E. & Habermas, G.R., "Verdict on the Shroud: Evidence for the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ," Servant Books: Ann Arbor MI, 1981, p.46. Emphasis original)<BR/><BR/>"Although the New Testament's description of typical first-century Jewish burial customs is not overly detailed, it does give the general features. The body was washed (Acts 9:37) and the hands and feet were bound (John 11:44). A cloth handkerchief (Greek, _sudarion_) was placed `around' the face (John 11:44; 20:7). The body was then wrapped in clean linen, often mixed with spices (John 19:39-40), and laid in the tomb or grave. The _Code of Jewish Law_ adds that the Jews usually shaved the head and beard completely and cut the fingernails before burial. However, the gospels tell us that Jesus' burial was incomplete. Because the Sabbath was about to begin, he was removed from the cross and laid in the tomb rather hurriedly. This is why the women returned to the tomb on Sunday morning. They had prepared spices and ointments for Jesus' body, and they went to the tomb to apply them (Luke 23:54-56). It is not often noticed why the women went to the tomb. They certainly did not expect Jesus to rise (Luke 24:3-4; John 20:12-15). Rather they came in order to finish anointing Jesus' body with the prepared spices (Luke 24:1; Mark 16:1). They were worried about who would help them to move the stone from the entrance of the tomb so that they could finish the job begun before the Sabbath (Mark 16:3)." (Stevenson & Habermas, 1981, pp.46-47)<BR/><BR/>"The gospels do not say to what extent the burial had been left unfinished. The New Testament says that Jesus was wrapped in linen with spices and a handkerchief after the custom of the Jews (John 19:40), but it does not say that his body was washed. At least to some degree, the anointing with spices was incomplete because the women returned to the tomb to complete the process. The scripture does not state specifically what other parts of the burial process were unfinished, if any. Although apparently a Jew, it appears to some that the man of the Shroud was not buried in accordance with the complete ritual of Jewish burial. He was laid in a shroud, as Jews were, but his body was unwashed. Stains of what looks like blood are visible on the body image and on the cloth itself. Neither was his hair trimmed. Despite what looks like a hurried burial, he was wrapped in a shroud of good linen. However, the wrapping in linen is consistent with first-century Jewish custom." (Stevenson & Habermas, 1981, p.47)<BR/><BR/>"*The Wrapping*. It is quite difficult to determine from the gospels the precise method used to wrap Jesus' body in the cloth since the four evangelists use several different Greek verbs to describe the process. Mark 15:46 states that Jesus was wrapped (_eneilesen_) in a linen sheet. Matthew 27:59 and Luke 23:53 describe the body as being wrapped, or folded (_enetylixen_) in the linen cloth. John 19:40 says that Jesus was bound (_edesan_) in linen clothes. These Greek words are similar, yet they do not reveal the exact method utilized." (Stevenson & Habermas, 1981, p.47. Emphasis original)<BR/><BR/>"McDowell and some others detect a problem in John's word to describe the `binding' of the body. [McDowell, J. & Stewart, D., "Answers to Tough Questions Skeptics Ask About the Christian Faith," Here's Life: San Bernardino CA, 1980, pp.165-166] They suggest that Jesus' body was wrapped tightly like an Egyptian mummy, a procedure which would not have yielded an image such as the one on the Shroud. However, the mummy idea largely rests on variant readings in the extant manuscripts of John's Gospel. One late manuscript uses a verb in 19:40 which suggests a tight binding of the body. The accepted verb, however, is _edesan_; a verb which means to `wrap' or `fold' and which is quite compatible with the synoptic verbs. The idea that Jesus was tightly bound like a mummy is also incompatible with John's earlier description of the way Lazarus emerged from the tomb after Jesus raised him from the dead (John 11:44). Lazarus, who was buried according to Jewish custom, was able to proceed from the tomb by his own power, although he was impaired and had to be `unbound.' He had his hands and feet bound, as was the custom, but he was not completely wrapped up. [Wuenschel, E.A. "The Shroud of Turin and the Burial of Christ," _Catholic Biblical Quarterly_, Vols. 7 & 8, 1945 & 1946] In other words, the type of wrapping depicted in the Shroud is compatible with Jewish burial technique. In particular, the burial methods depicted both in the Essene cemetery and described in the _Code of Jewish Law_ favor the Shroud. Along with the Lazarus account, these sources convince us that the type of wrapping demanded by the Shroud was at least practiced in Israel in Jesus' time, and may even have been the most popular practice. At any rate, it cannot be asserted that Jesus must have been buried as a mummy." (Stevenson & Habermas, 1981, pp.47-48. Emphasis original) <BR/><BR/>>I'm curious as to how tight that binding was; If Lazarus would be able to walk own his own of if he would of needed some Help?<BR/><BR/>They were just linen strips that were only intended to stop a dead body making spasmodic movements until rigor mortis set in. They were not intended to stop a live body from moving. <BR/><BR/>As your own KJV quote from Jn 11:44 says:<BR/><BR/>"*he that was dead came forth*, bound hand and foot with graveclothes" (my emphasis)<BR/><BR/>i.e. Lazarus came out of the tomb unaided, and only needed help by others to "Loose him, and let him go."<BR/><BR/>Stephen E. JonesStephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14510749.post-70651768679468285082007-05-08T20:46:00.000+08:002007-05-08T20:46:00.000+08:00Hi, I came across this blog trying to study John 1...Hi, I came across this blog trying to study John 11:44<BR/><BR/>"And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go."<BR/><BR/>And I saw where you said <BR/><BR/>"Since the Jewish burial custom allowed the use of cloths to bind the hands and feet"<BR/><BR/>Do you know of any good references where I could look up more about that? I'm curious as to how tight that binding was; If Lazarus would be able to walk own his own of if he would of needed some Help?<BR/><BR/>thanks!<BR/>-nathannFriedlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04994124097856880458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14510749.post-74239982477570284682007-05-07T07:59:00.000+08:002007-05-07T07:59:00.000+08:00Anonymous>If the shroud were authentic (a possibil...Anonymous<BR/><BR/>>If the shroud were authentic (a possibility) and was covering the body of Christ who rose from the dead (a fact) would it not be reasonable to expect the resurrection event to be a source of neutrons that make the shroud appear younger using the carbon 14 dating technique?<BR/><BR/>You have stolen my thunder! :-) Congratulations for thinking of it. That was going to be in my next point, the assumption "3)" that "there has been no additional neutron source that would be creating C-14 from N-14."<BR/><BR/>I thought I had previously made that point in my debates on my Yahoo group, which I terminated in July 2005, but checking back I cannot see where I did, so I assume I didn't. I did not know all that much about the Shroud back in 2005. <BR/><BR/>Nor am I aware of any of my books or any online articles making that point, but I was going to recheck because it is hard to believe it has not occurred to anyone.<BR/><BR/>I have ordered a new book: Stevenson, K.E., "Image of the Risen Christ: Remarkable New Evidence About the Shroud [of Turin]" (1999) that I am hoping will make that point, but it could take weeks or even months to get to me in Australia from the USA.<BR/><BR/>Do you (or anyone reading this) know of any book or article that has made this point?<BR/><BR/>Some of my books and online articles do mention radiation as a cause of the Shroud's image and I will be quoting from them on that. <BR/><BR/>But no one, as far as I can see, but I will re-check, has made the connection that neutrons convert N14 into C14 (which is the continung source of C14 in the first place, since having a short half-life of 5730 years otherwise there would be none). So if there was a radiation burst which included neutrons when Jesus body changed state into a "glorious body" (Php 3:21; 1 Cor 15:42-44), then, if the Shroud of Turin really was the linen sheet covering Jesus body when He was resurrected, it would be *expected* from that alone (let alone from other factors like biofilm) to have a younger radiocarbon age than its *actual* age.<BR/><BR/>>Isn't there some other evidence that points to some sort of neuclear event happening with the image left in the shroud?<BR/><BR/>Yes. As I said above, in my next part #3 I will read and quote from my books and articles (if any) about the evidence for the Shroud image being caused by radiation. <BR/><BR/>Then I will make the connection between that radiation containing a neutron flux which would convert some of the Shroud's N14 (ordinary nitrogen), which although linen itself being cellulose (C6H10O5) doesn't contain any, the air in the Shroud and Jesus' blood, skin and muscle on it from His scourging, crucifixion and spearing, would have, into C14.<BR/><BR/>Since it is the ratio of C14/C12 which determines the radiocarbon age (more C14 = higher C14/C12 ratio = younger radiocarbon age), that alone would make the Shroud's radiocarbon age younger than expected from the normal C14 that the flax the Shroud's linen was made of when it was alive as a plant taking in CO2 (the C atoms up to the time the flax was harvested containing both C12 and a tiny propoortion of C14).<BR/><BR/>Stephen E. JonesStephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14510749.post-14455437267187935182007-05-07T05:27:00.000+08:002007-05-07T05:27:00.000+08:00If the shroud were authentic (a possibility) and w...If the shroud were authentic (a possibility) and was covering the body of Christ who rose from the dead (a fact) would it not be reasonable to expect the resurrection event to be a source of neutrons that make the shroud appear younger using the carbon 14 dating technique? Isn't there some other evidence that points to some sort of neuclear event happening with the image left in the shroud?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com